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Interview with Seth Heine, founder of CollectiveGood in Grist Magazine, July 2005

Revenge of the Seth
Seth Heine of CollectiveGood answers Grist's questions
11 Jul 2005

Grill an activist! Seth Heine of CollectiveGood, answered our questions, below; later this week, he'll answer yours. Hit him with the best you got. Send in your burningest questions by noon PDT on Wednesday, July 13, 2005. We'll publish selected questions and responses on Friday, July 15.

Questions from Grist editors
Q: With what environmental organizations are you affiliated?
A: I'm the president of CollectiveGood and RIPMobile.com -- mobile phone recyclers.

Q: What do your organizations do? What, in a perfect world, would constitute "mission accomplished"?
A: CollectiveGood recycles mobile devices (phones, pagers, PDAs) and all of their related accessories, usually in partnerships with charities, companies, and/or governments. We also just launched a new division, RIPMobile.com, which buys used mobile phones directly from the public, paying people for their phones in the form of content (music downloads, ring tones) or gift certificates from companies like Circuit City -- making recycling fun and rewarding for young people.

Some 550 million used mobile phones in the U.S. are waiting to go into landfills. Only about 1 percent of what is out there is being collected and recycled right now, and the environmental consequences of hundreds of millions of phones going into the garbage can rather than being recycled are severe -- hundreds of thousands of tons of toxic waste (mobile phones contain lead, cadmium, mercury, beryllium, arsenic, and much more) are threatening our food and water supplies.

Our programs help protect the environment from these toxins and make us less dependent on strip mining the earth for metals like gold and copper; they also help fund charities and get handsets into the developing world.

In a perfect world, everyone would recycle their mobile phones, preferably through our programs, and this problem would simply go away. But recycling is a learned behavior, and it will probably be some time before everyone learns to apply it to used consumer electronics, not just paper, glass, and cans. We recognize that the motivation to recycle is elusive for most people, so we are always trying to figure out how to motivate them to do it. We developed RIPMobile.com to get the public to do the right thing by making the process feel like consuming rather than recycling.

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Q: What long and winding road led you to your current position?
A: I was always very inquisitive and eager to learn new things. I was exposed to international travel at an early age, and I think the ability to see situations from other cultures' perspectives made me a pretty flexible problem-solver. As I started to develop some environmental consciousness -- a lot of that was after college -- I gravitated to trying to solve problems that were large and universal in scope.

If you are willing to work hard and smart in a disciplined manner, why not take on big-picture issues and see if you can change the world? I know that sounds ambitious, perhaps even naive or arrogant, but it is fun, and the risk of failure, given the mess we are in, isn't very intimidating.

When I saw the potential to improve the lives of hundreds of thousands of people in Latin America, to protect the environment from hundreds of tons of toxic waste, and to fund charities in the process, I knew I had to give it a go.


Q: Who's the biggest pain in the ass you have to deal with?
A: The phone companies and handset manufacturers, which are suffering a terminal case of groupthink. They do an amazing job of plodding along, resisting change, and implementing non-sustainable solutions; they want nothing to do with solving the problems they clearly had a hand in creating. The cutthroat competitiveness is so ingrained. They often seem more comfortable (programmed, even) trying to kill you or steal your ideas than simply cooperating and helping solve problems they need to solve anyway.


Q: Who's nicer than you would expect?
A: The consistent glimmer of hope is the involvement of individuals and charities. Every day we receive hundreds of packages full of old phones and accessories. These people took valuable time out of their lives to send in their phones -- whatever their motivation (environmental, charitable, cashing in on valuable assets). I see each of these packages as an act of kindness and individual responsibility. In the broader sense, the ability of people to band together and make a difference at the grassroots level is very powerful, effective, democratic, and encouraging.


Q: Where were you born? Where do you live now?
A: I was born in Cleveland and now live in Atlanta, by way of Miami, Washington, D.C., California, Munich, Germany, Phoenix ...


Q: What has been the worst moment in your professional life to date?
A: Actually, the first two years of running CollectiveGood were the hardest, scariest, and most grueling part of my career. We were positive we had developed a surefire recipe for saving the world from mobile-phone waste and bridging the digital divide. As it turns out, we were right and have set the industry in motion. But for several business quarters in a row, we were looking bankruptcy right in the eye.

It wasn't worth planning more than 30 days ahead for almost two years, death seemed so imminent. It was a very trying period psychologically, and I was pretty sure I had destroyed my career right out of grad school -- and my marriage too.

Like Nietzsche said: "That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger." I came out of it stronger as a person and better as an entrepreneur -- and with a stronger marriage, too.

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Q: What's been the best?
A: Certainly the best part is having survived all of that and still being here, loving my job, and relishing the fulfilling sense that we invented what we do, fought hard to do it our way, and get an enormous amount done every day. I think we all feel very privileged to love our jobs and see that what we do has a very real, positive impact on the world around us.


Q: What environmental offense has infuriated you the most?
A: People who use the guise of environmentalism to sell or pitch products but don't really mean it irritate the hell out of me. At its root, it's a lie. There are a lot of companies that copy what we do, but they cut corners by asking for only the new and valuable phones (the oldest and least valuable pose the greatest environmental threat) and don't want the batteries or chargers, which are also full of toxic waste. They present themselves as environmentalists but actually perpetuate and accelerate the problem, and profit greatly from that strategy.


Q: Who is your environmental hero?
A: Not so much a person as a place: My experience living in Germany and sorting trash into four streams of recyclables (glass, paper, metal, and compost) -- just like everyone else had to -- was pretty formative. I realized how much a society can get done if we all pull together and everyone participates. The U.S. had all kinds of recycling programs in place during WWII because we needed to do that to win the war. It is sad that once we returned to peacetime, it all became trash again. We didn't learn much from that experience.


Q: For the pragmatic environmentalist, what should be the focus -- political action designed to change policy, or individual action designed to change lifestyle?
A: I see leveraging grassroots activism as the most powerful cultural tool out there, with the best potential to quickly change lifestyles and environmental impact. Look at the power a group like MoveOn has -- how quickly they act to empower people to change something they don't like. That is a political example, but why can't that same technology and strategy be used in an environmental context?

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Q: What's your environmental vice?
A: I love sports cars and drive fast. I feel guilty about the big smile I get on my face that way, I really do. I am happy to see that the new hybrid cars are generally faster than conventional gas-powered cars, and I'm looking forward to watching hybrids evolve to take over the gas-guzzler era. The environmental and national-security benefits of declaring war on oil will be huge.


Q: What are you reading these days?
A: I have been reading books about the start of aviation, trying to learn more about the planes my grandfather flew when he was young. He was one of the very first airmail pilots and was forced to quit flying because the planes crashed all the time. Did you know 31 of the first 40 airmail pilots crashed and died in the first six years of service? Lucky for me, my grandmother made him choose between her and the plane!


Q: What's your favorite meal?
A: I always love good sushi; it is so simple and tasty. That and kung pao chicken with broccoli -- I couldn't live without that one.


Q: Which stereotype about environmentalists most fits you?
A: I spend a lot of time trying to pick up little pieces of trash to recycle them. It makes me feel good.


Q: What's your favorite place or ecosystem?
A: The most beautiful and inspiring place I have ever been is the Havasupai Indian Reservation in the Grand Canyon. It is a fusion of the lushness of Hawaii and the stark ruggedness of the canyon. That it is difficult to get to and a bit of a secret adds to the pleasure of being there, because you don't see many people and feel like you have it all to yourself.


Q: What's one thing the environmental movement is doing particularly well?
A: Learning to make the business case for environmentalism through sustainable business practices and efficiencies. I think the fact that GE has started to talk about it indicates a tidal shift.

Q: What's one thing the environmental movement is doing badly, and how could it be done better?
A: One thing the environmental community needs to do better is be less confrontational and more focused on showing businesses the benefits of reforming. Of course, that requires someone on the other side of the table to be listening and be interested in change. The new generations of engineers, M.B.A.s, and management in general tend to be more open to the fact that change is not only a constant but an opportunity to improve constantly.

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Q: If you could institute by fiat one environmental reform, what would it be?
A: It would be profound if we were all responsible for processing our own waste for a week -- I mean our garbage as well as our recyclables. If we all realized how much waste we create and how messy our consumerism really is, people would be pretty shocked and behavior would change quickly.


Q: What was your favorite band when you were 18? How about now?
A: I listened to a lot of Rush when I was 18, and now I listen to a lot of jam-band stuff. It is great to see bands like String Cheese Incident and MOE creating music that is based on improvisation; it gives the music a life of its own, and that is very engaging.


Q: What's your favorite TV show? Movie?
A: I am absolutely sucked into 24, and I like watching The West Wing because of the big issues it confronts. The movie that has touched me most is called The Journey (by Eric Saperston); it has changed a lot of people's lives.


Q: What are you happy about right now?
A: I am happy spending time with my family, watching my 2-year-old son learn and grow. We have another one (sex unknown) due shortly, and the sense of wonder through the whole process is so powerful. It is a remarkable series of miracles that play out before your eyes -- mesmerizing.


Q: If you could have every InterActivist reader do one thing, what would it be?
A: Of course, I would want everyone to recycle their old cell phones and accessories, preferably through either RIPMobile.com or CollectiveGood.com, and get their friends to do it too. It is a universal problem, but one that is free and easy to solve.

Questions from Grist editors

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Interview with Seth Heine, the founder of CollectiveGood

This interview appeared in Compunotes in January, 2002:

CollectiveGood is an organization committed to recycling older cell phones for the benefit of communities that need them. We came across CollectiveGood at Comdex this year where they won a Best of Comdex Finalist award. The person manning the booth was Seth Heine and his enthusiasm and vision of what can be was incredible. We asked Seth to participate in a CompuNotes interview and he agreed.

CN: What is the goal of CollectiveGood?
SH: CollectiveGood was started in May of 2000 to redirect mobile phones that are currently being thrown in the trash into a far more useful second life as a first-time phones for low-income people in the developing world, usually in Latin America. "One man's trash is another man's treasure" sums it up pretty well; the majority of new mobile phones sold in North America are actually replacement phones, creating a pile of 40-50 million phones that are thrown into landfills every year, and that pile grows by more than a million phones every week. This "pile" of discarded phones is growing rapidly, fueled by an ever larger number of mobile phone users, and accelerating replacement rates. Since about 85% of the population in Latin America is poor, and they have never had access to telephones (landline), the continent is going to leapfrog the standard wired telephone and will go wireless. That's great, except that when people buy wireless service, the phone is sold at full price, not subsidized like we are used to in the US. That means that these phones cost $150-200, and that is very far out of reach from the 375 million people in that region that we are targeting. We hope to motivate people to recycle their spare, shelved or otherwise unused phones back into re-use through our programs so we can in turn provide these phones at a low cost to people down there who can join the modern age of communications. The underlying theme is that access to wireless communications improves people's efficiency and ability to be in touch with family, work, etc - thus improving the quality of life and economies throughout the region. Instead of spending hours on a bus or walking down a path to the next village in order to find out what a farmer needs to bring to market, he can just make a phone call and get the answer in a minute. They say "time is money", and ironically, low-income people's time is very important to them, because many of them live a hand to mouth existence, they can't afford to waste time, they need to scramble to feed their families every day.

It's also important because mobile phones contain several toxic materials such as lead, mercury, cadmium, gallium arsenide and more. When you think about the fact that there are already about 200 million of these devices in our landfills, and it grows by 40-50 million phones a year with no end in sight, that's a serious environmental problem that can be averted. We recycle all phones and accessories we receive either by putting it into reuse, or making sure that is ground up and recycled for its core elements, so nothing poisonous ends up in the landfills. We are proud to be supported by the EPA and by the electronics industry association.

We developed our unique model of partnerships with charities because we realize that it is an inconvenience to dig that phone out a drawer, to pack it, and to mail it in. The belief that by providing people a wide variety of charitable causes to support through their donation, we can reach a large body of mobile phone owners who are willing to take a few minutes to help a series of good causes with minimal effort. By donating your phone through CollectiveGood to one of our charity partners, you are converting that spare mobile phone into funds that these charities can use to further their missions, so in essence, you convert your old phone into protected rainforest land, children's medical assistance, international aid and disaster relief etc. We then get the phone back into re-use in the developing world at about 25% of the price of a new phone, helping people enjoy the advantages of modern telecommunications.

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CN: Where did the idea of recycling phones originate?  
SH: I came up with the idea after visiting Latin America and realizing how cumbersome simple things can be when you can't access people via telephone. The simplest tasks all of a sudden become very time consuming and inefficient. Imagine if 85% of all of the phones in this country stopped working. Think of the how that would impede everyone's ability to get things done. That's the every day reality down there, and it doesn't need to be like that. I realized that new phones were priced way out of the reach of the vast majority of the population, and that despite the fact that wireless technology can leapfrog landline/copper technology, the cost of the phone itself is insurmountable for hundreds of millions of people. I thought about the spare mobile phone in my drawer at home, and thought about how it could help someone if I could get it into the right hands. From there, I did some research, and blown away by the scale and scope of the problem, and the staggering number of phones we just throw away in North America because we don't know of a better thing to do with them. Its odd that most people keep their old mobile phones in a drawer, because they sense some value in them, but they eventually throw them away, because what else are you going to do with it? This is the perfect solution - it allows you to recapture the value via a tax-deduction as an in-kind gift to a charity, and serves the higher purposes of helping charities and helping people in Latin America. That's a lot of good for a small amount of effort.

CN: What do you do with the phones you recycle?
SH: All of the phones we receive are either refurbished and put into reuse, used for parts (if it is broken), or recycled for its core elements such as the plastics, metals etc. We do this for phones, batteries and accessories. The vast majority of our phones go into reuse in Latin America, and most of them work when we receive them, so its a matter of managing the refurbishment and distribution processes in order to make sure that we make the most out of every donation.

CN: What is the process for recycling? Who does the recycling for you?
SH: Most of the phones and accessories we receive are in working order, so we recycle them back into reuse, which is the highest form of recycling. If the phone is broken, but has useful parts, we cannibalize it, and create working phones from the scraps. Otherwise, we send the phones and batteries to partners who are EPA certified to properly dispose of these materials in a way that is not harmful to the environment. Its an important part of our corporate mission and who we are. We are proud of the fact that do not have a dumpster at out facility, because all of the toxic materials and scrap are sent to companies who specialize in the proper disposal of these materials.

CN: What is one of the more interesting success stories to come out of CollectiveGood?
SH: We have lots of success stories, because we help many charities do more good deeds every day by providing them this innovative source of funding. We have raised tens of thousands of dollars for our charity partners and for a wide variety of causes, and provided thousands of phones to the masses in Latin America too. Unfortunately, we are disconnected from the end purchaser in Latin America because we would have to own stores down there, and that isn't feasible, so I don't have specific stories of how our phones have improved people's lives, but I do know of many stories where people who could finally afford a mobile phone were able to start their own businesses and provide jobs for others simply because they were able to be so much more efficient in responding to people's needs instantly via phone.

CN: What is one of the more interesting donation stories?
SH: One of the more recent stories that I find interesting is the fact that we are receiving phones from people in Europe now. We also have people interested in working with us to start this program in Europe because they face the very same issues, with even more phones going into landfills, and a stronger need to preserve the environment due to the population density over there. I recently started providing these phones to charitable organizations and relief workers in Africa (European GSM phones will not work in Latin America). The idea was always international in scope, but it went global very quickly because it is a huge problem all over the world.

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CN: Who makes CollectiveGood happen? Is it just you?
SH: I'm the founder and president of the company, but there are many people who make this work. We have employees, volunteers, thousands of donors, and many charities who put work into this program to make it work every day.

CN: What about Seth? What is your experience in the industry and why did you decide to get involved?
SH: I got into the wireless industry after grad school by working for a software company that was planning to offer products to wireless carriers. I soon realized the the company had some good ideas, but the product itself was basically "vaporware". When I saw this opportunity to do something so much more purposeful, I jumped at it.

CN: Do you think wireless phones will one day replace land lines in homes? What about the future of wireless in general?
SH: I don't think that wireless phones will fully replace landline phones in homes, because cordless phones basically offer the same advantages, at a lower cost. But I know several people who only own a mobile phone, and have no landline phones in their homes. I do see an huge future for wireless products in homes, in the workplace, and everywhere else, because mobility and the opportunity to not have wires all over the place have obvious appeal. I think that most wired IT products will eventually become wireless, and think it will be fascinating to see how the ability to be mobile yet plugged in will impact society.

CN: How does a person donate their old cell phone?
SH: The primary way people participate in our programs is via our web page. It is designed to help people learn more mobile phone recycling, and how we do it. It makes it very easy for people to select a charity for the donation of their phone, and provides all of the donation forms. Some programs even offer free, downloadable US postal service shipping labels, so all you have to do is print the forms and walk to your mailbox. We try to make recycling your spare mobile as easy as possible, and its always free.

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